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Shroud Talk

Shroud of turin second carbon dating

At least, not the Lisa who bought back her brother's soul, and made the family get rid of an illegal cable hookup in order to prevent them from going to hell. ( Shades of the Catholic Church's long resistance to carbon dating the Shroud of Turin, which when it was dated proved the shroud was nowhere near old enough to be. The Shroud of Turin, a linen cloth that tradition associates with the crucifixion and burial of Jesus, has undergone numerous scientific tests, the most notable of which is radiocarbon dating, in an attempt to determine the relic's authenticity. In , scientists at three separate laboratories dated samples from the Shroud to a. Very small samples from the Shroud of Turin have been dated by accelerator mass spectrometry in laboratories at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich. . The Zurich group first split each ultrasonically cleaned sample in half, with the treatment of the second set of samples being deferred until the radiocarbon measurements on the.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the thing is real. It doesn't match up with things like actual burial practices at the purported time or the physics of the hypothetical creation. But that investigation was never a great one, no matter what their findings came out to be, nor how they're defended or defamed.

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I don't blame the team, but the Vatican heaped so many restrictions on what they could and couldn't do, how can anyone trust the end results to be unbiased? I actually had a physics prof back in 84 who was on the original carbon dating team. I remember seeing him on the In search of episode Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup the shroud before I went to college. I asked old Harry Gove after class one day and he was sure it was from the late Middle Ages to early renaissance.

Titus, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's character. I was just saying that with the limitations they were put under, the data itself could be flawed, and without access to the Shroud, we have no way to even try to replicate the results in order to be sure--a basic part of scientific process. Like, I am quite sure that the results--late Middle Ages to early Renaissance--are what the tests showed.

Read more I'm not so sure of is that the sample was a good one in the first place, given that not only do we know repairs were made, but also that the piece was handled over and over and over again and was even in a fire. Everything I ever learned about carbon dating states that samples can be contaminated by outside sources of carbon that change the ratios, which is why samples need to be handled very carefully when they're taken.

I'm sure the team handled the sample very carefully. I also know that the Vatican only let them take it from a CORNER, which we have the Vatican's own records were handled repeatedly throughout the ages since its discovery.

Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup

That's the kind of bias-introducing limitation I meant, and that's the kind of limitation that makes that investigation and pretty much all of the ones that have followed invalid. The results cannot be replicated, because the Vatican won't allow them to be. Colavito; Thanks again for trying to educate and inform those that will listen. Is this really to be considered disappointing?!

Considering that it's really kind of impossible to HAVE Vikings in the 14th century centuries after the end of the Viking era--one would think that would make it MORE exciting rather than less. A potentially Norse skull fragment pre-dating L'Anse-aux-Meadows by a century would be the much bigger and better discovery.

Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin

That would be amazing, but I think it's more likely the skull fragment will turn out to be Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup native American origins. Oh, Daver, pretty definitely. I mean, hell, were it to prove to be European, that wouldn't even prove it was Viking, either, so the chances of proving "Viking" without cultural attributes to go on is kind of impossible, anyway.

Whether CE or CE what does it matter it will still not substantially change known history. The fact that the Grand Banks attracted fleets of cod fishers perhaps even before Columbus and certainly within a few years of his voyage which actually may represent the final breaking of the monopoly held by Icelandic cod fleets The fishing fleets of many European nations are known to have ventured into the North Western Atlantic mostly without leaving a trace.

Some MAY have landed in America and sailed up rivers but any bones found could represent just one such adventurer. It would be ironic if the skull turned out to be that of a black deckhand from a Portugeuse fishing boat. Yep, C dating is science. Jason, this is a very narrow question Do you dispute the result of the piece of wood C dated to as early as found within the excavation of the Sod House at Spirit Pond?

I am not going to springboard to anything else. Sorry, C14 is not the "gold standard" it has to be sychronised with other dating methods including dendrochronology. By itself C14 is rather a hit and miss method of accurate dating. Without surrounding context, there's no reason to think an OOPA is ever more than just a piece of debris that got included in a later deposition. The gold standard for now is generally luminosity testing, but that's expensive.

Even your radiocarbon number is flawed, though, because without giving the full range of dates there's no way to ascertain either the degree of certainty of the testing lab smaller standard deviation or the probability of the earlier date if it falls at the bottom of the bell curve, it's got virtually no chance of being true.

Moreover, I've never heard of any wooden artifact at Spirit Pond. I know there is a claim that rune covered stones were found there, but we only have the finder's word for that. Even if an old piece of wood was found there it would only mean that there was old wood there. If the piece of wood was worked by Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup hands, the most obvious assumption would be that it is an Amerindian artifact. Native Americans were quite proficient at working in wood, a fact that sometimes seems surprising to fringe types.

And of course, as I already mentioned, there would be no way of knowing if any piece of wood was found in close relation to the stones because there is no record of the stones' excavation. Thanks for pointing out that C is the golden standard - poor choice of words on my part. His report was published in so it would follow that the C dating was conducted in that time frame.

Was this the most often used value for the standard deviation may not be the correct term? My high school chemistry classes are a long time in the past, but don't the test results indicate the best fidelity being the date, with the lower probability tails spanning from AD across the AD center point and then continuing to AD That was the result of the test, as Lenik related it in his published work.

C dating, perhaps an improved process today compared to four decades ago, still appears to be an acceptable scientific dating methodology, otherwise, why would it still be used lower cost? C14 testing is still used but never alone. Numerous and embarrassing claims were made in the past, all of which were due to uncalibrated C14 tests. There is also the annoying bugbear of contamination of samples and the employment of sloppy laboratories.

The trouble with a single, small piece of wood, particularly in a maritime setting, is that it can be the last remnant of something which has been chopped and changed over many generations, perhaps starting as a long plank inside a 15th-century ship, salvaged when the exterior planking was too rotten to save, and so on The fact that it was found in association with an iron nail which had not completely rusted away tends to support that theory, although Lenik does note other hints of earlier occupation than the main 18th-century phase, including a Native American plummet stone.

As Tom has said, radiocarbon dating can be problematic without calibrating to a radiocarbon calibration curve. This technique wasn't available inbut can still be applied today by using OxCal, which would give a more accurate date.

The preparation of samples has come a long way since the 70s, however, and it is impossible to know if there was any contamination which may have altered the radiocarbon test, which would make any calibration meaningless. You cannot say that the median is any more likely than either of the extremes. That would mean that even the most extreme marine reservoir effect of years would still only put the date range between and and any date within that range would be possible.

The C dating can do no more than that, at best. The problem with dating wood is that the date range is determined by when the tree died, and old wood can be found on sites and in contexts dating to much please click for source. This means that the wood dated may not date the site, but could date to an earlier tree felling.

This is why archaeologists tend to use perennial carbonised remains such as seeds, and are rightly wary of dates provided by old wood.

These warriors had needles and electricity on their side, long before anyone else would know what to do with it. By itself C14 is rather a hit and miss method of accurate dating. And what of the Sudarium of Oviedo — the second shroud made from identical material which matches the markings on the Turin Shroud? Other suggested locations include the Bahamas, the Bermuda Triangle and Bolivia.

Especially if only a single date is offered. Most of what I had planned to say has been covered, but I wanted to call you out for one specific thing.

Shroud Talk

Thanks for sticking to reasonable, civil discourse and, from what I can tell, approaching the conversation by being honest about what you know or don't know. Goes a long way toward not being howled down and it's a welcome change in discussions like this. Wait, Wolter says the story on the stone is Masonic allegory These points define the lower 48 and were not established until The most plausible explanation is some Mason carved and place the stone there in the s to memorialize the Masonic "Center of the USA" location.

It's not authentic Norse or a hoax, but it is a Masonic artifact. So what about Florida? The Sacred Feminine, of course. Only the Feminine is Sacred. The male is a filthy, shameful personage, suitable only to sully the divine, and he shan't be invoked again! Since eight click here bones are supposed to me white men I am not sure how someone without specific training could determine that it is possible they are victims of the Santee Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup uprising of Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup a more logical explanation is that they are Native American.

Like most of the fringe types they start from a conclusion and work backward at the evidence, ignoring what doesn't fit and using evidence, no matter how thin to support the conclusion they have already determined to be true. We don't know what the newspaper article was really referring to but its not inconceivable, given the history of fur trading in the region, that you could find Europeans buried with Native Americans going back to the 17th and 18th centuries.

The Shroud of Turin is definitely a fake.

Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup

Even according to scripture, he was wrapped in pieces of cloth, not a whole cloth. It would have been too expensive to make. Even so, the image is that of a 13th century King Arthur looking Jesus, which is odd considering he was Hebrew. It is a painting from the 13th century. The KRS is a total hoax, not from the 13th century, but from the s, and always has been, to drum up interest in Kensingon.

So the whole quest to find Vikings did it is based on a hoax. The skull or skulls found on that site are probably hapless trappers or traders from colonial times, or even natives. It is impossible to tell if they were red or white with all the skin gone.

Go here is impossible to tell if they were red or white with all the skin gone. E-mail this to a friend Printable version. The idea of scientifically dating the shroud had first been proposed in the s, but permission had been refused because the procedure at the time would have required the destruction of too much fabric almost 0. Prof H E Gove, former professor emeritus of physics at the University of Rochester and former director of the Nuclear Structure Research Laboratory at the University of Rochester, helped to invent radiocarbon dating and was closely involved in setting up the shroud dating project.

The CE reading is probably fiction he made up. If he made up the other data, he made up that too. This person asking for a lot of money hopefully will not get any, as he is just looking for money and attention, and to hook up with a show that is now cancelled. I doubt he made up the CE finding because it's so clearly out of line with his argument. If he had made up the radio carbon date I imagine he would have made it much closer this web page alleged date of the Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup Stone to help prove his contention regarding the skull fragment being from one of the Vikings Shroud Of Turin Second Carbon Hookup as referenced in the stone narrative.

With the CE date he must now make some amazing mental leaps to keep this alive. If they could get DNA from it, that might answer the question. A trace-mineral profile might also answer the question. Both are exceptionally difficult, time-consuming, and not likely to even be attempted on just a fragment of a skull with a compromised provenance to begin with. A dyeing, a drawing, a rubbing, or even a burning it might be, but it does not have the characteristics of any other 13th century painting.

Oh, and by "burning," I do not mean "magic Resurrection Energy! Think wood-burning, but on cloth.